The synopsis: We have a Sayid centric story where we tie the missing events that led to his falling out with Ben on the Island and his capture by Ilana leading to his boarding of Ajira flight 316. Meanwhile in 1977 (currently the present day in the minds of our heroes), Sayid makes life difficult for Sawyer with his refusal to cooperate. Drama ensues in DHARMA LAND.
The Flashbacks
Well, depending on how you want to look at this, most of them could technically be flash forwards because they take place at a later date. But, to keep us all sane, we will consider 1977 Sayid as "Present Day Sayid" because, for him, it IS the present. So the events that take place in this section are all part of HIS past! Are we all on board? Good!
Tikrit, Iraq (unspecified date)
A theme is introduced to us that Sayid was born to be a killer. That it's in his blood. We see Sayid as a boy snap the head of a chicken (rooster?) doing a favor for his older brother. Their father told the older son that he had to kill the bird to become a man! Since Sayid killed the chicken, he will be a man, according to his father. Well, we finally see that even Sayid had some issues with his father (a running theme in the world of LOST).
Moscow
This scene takes place at some point after Sayid's last flash forward episode in season 4 "The Economist." In the Economist, we learn that Sayid become an assasin for Ben to try and keep his friends safe. He killed a man (Mr. Avellino) on a golf course and fell in love with his next target whom he also killed. Here we see Sayid chasing another target.
- Sayid kills the man he was chasing and meets up with Ben wearing a goofy hat afterwards. He is told that this was the last one of Widmore's organization that posted a threat to his friends. So this confirms that Widmore was the Economist, as if we didn't figure that out by now!
- Sayid wonders what next to do with his life. Ben tells him to live his life, that he's free. So, depending on how you want to look at this....did Ben know that Sayid still was going to go back to the Island because he saw him there as a boy? Well, that whole last scene just throws everything up for questioning!
- In either case, Ben obviously had other things in mind for Sayid. Let the mind games begin! (or continue I guess?)
Santo Domingo
We're back with LOST's version of Habitat for Humanity and Sayid is doing his good deeds! First he was visited by Locke. Now he has a 2nd visitor.
- It's Ben. Sayid:"How did you find me?" Ben: "I looked" ahhhh that dude can say so much with 2 words!
- Ben informs Sayid that Locke is dead. He left out the part that he actually killed him! He blames the death of Locke on Widmore's retribution for the killings that Sayid has been up to. He then explains that someone was planted outside of Hurley's Institution at Santa Rosa. This sets up the scene in the season finale of season 4 where we see Sayid kill the man planted outside of the nut house.
- Okay, so Ben set up a ruse to get Sayid back to Los Angeles. Were the men that were chasing the Oceanic 6 all HIS men then? Did Widmore have nothing to do with it? And if they were Ben's men, did he let them all get killed? And I guess we really didn't get an answer this episode if Ilana worked for Ben too.
- Ben starts to get into Sayid's head that he's a born killer, the same thing that his father told him. Sayid refuses to believe it. Of course, if kid Ben survives to next week then older Ben would actually NOT be lying since he already knows Sayid tries to kill him! Ugh....time travel!
- So I guess by this scene, we are meant to think that Sayid has realized he was used by Ben. Because after he rescues Hurley, that is what he tells him! Maybe all of that time building houses helped him put it all in perspective.
Los Angeles
We revisit the Oceanic 6 (minus Hurley plus Ben) reunion at the docks where it is revealed that the plan is to return to the Island. Sayid wants nothing to do with it, and we have a modified quote from Sayid. Instead of "if I ever see either of you again it will be extremely unpleasant" it was "if i ever see YOU again...etc..." and it was focused at Ben. We next join Sayid at a Bar.
- He's drinking LOST's favorite Whiskey. Ol' McCutcheon's at $120 a shot!
- Ilana is there clearly coming on to him. Sayid goes on and on about trying to change. Ilana discusses people tempting you to staying the same.
- Next thing we know...we're in a hotel room. Sayid gets fooled by the ol' "Take of my Boot but I'm really going to kick you with it" switcheroo! The tables are turned and Ilana has a gun on Sayid.
- Ilana said she was hired by the family of Peter Avellino to bring Sayid back to Guam. She doesn't acknowledge being a bounty hunter, per Sayid's question. For all we know, she could be related to Avellino. And if Peter worked for Widmore, doesn't that mean that Widmore might possibly have someone on the Island again in Ilana? Eh...it's a stretch. Plus, we don't know...she could be working for Ben also.
Airport prior to Ajira Flight 316
- Sayid actually does see Hurley, Jack and Kate prior to getting on the plane. He realizes what might be happening and questions whether they are going to Guam. Ilana's "where else would we be going?" question seemed a little suspicious. But it could be just me looking into things.
- But Sayid requesting to take a later flight seems to indicate that he'd rather face punishment in Guam than to return to the Island.
- Sayid sees Sun on the plane. But the fireworks start when Ben gets on the plane. He overheard Jack and Hurley talking about "getting back" Sayid asks if Ilana is working for Ben. Goes on to explain the monster that Ben is: responsible for the murder of his daughter to save himself, responsible for nothing short of genocide (the purge), liar, manipulator. Ilana, again mysteriously asks "why would i work for someone like that?" She just never really gives the impression she is telling Sayid the whole truth. More to tell there! But we see Sayid again tortured by what he has done since he has left the Island while working for Ben. And it surely goes into his motivation for what he does after his return to the Island.
1977
The story on the Island consists of the DHARMA folks trying to figure out who Sayid is, Sawyer trying to help conceal their "cover" as DHARMA members, and Sayid trying to figure out his purpose for returning to the island. Kate finds out about Juliet and Sawyer and oh right, little Ben is intrigued by Sayid.
Sayid and Ben's sandwich dates
- Well, we see that Ben developed his lying skills much younger in life. He lied to Security Phil telling him that Horace asked him to keep bringing Sayid sandwiches. This time around? Chicken Salad!! That'll get Sayid to talk!
- We also see Ben's love for books started early too. For the book he gives Sayid to read is one that he read twice. The name of the book you ask? "A Separate Reality" by Carlos Castaneda which was published in 1971. This book is alleged to be a non-fiction piece of work that discusses the author's supposed 3 year apprenticeship of a self-proclaimed Yaqui Indian Sorcerer, Don Juan Matus. Interesting. Let's think about the title though. We have been long told that the producers of LOST want to avoid creating Alternate Realities, futures and what-not (ahem...Heroes). But considering the events that occur at the end of this episode, I believe this tidbit has been dropped in to make us still ponder the possibility of it. You know, kinda like they threw in DAVE's speech to Hurley that the whole show is a dream inside Hurley's head and he just have to jump off of the cliff to wake up. The producers had already stated that the show won't be a dream! Kinda like the show always hints at themes of purgatory even though we know the show is not about that! So, we know that with Time Travel stories, that there is indeed this ability or desire for people to want to change things that happened in the past. But what we already know from the producers is, you can't change the future from happening! And I believe what will become a much bigger theme on LOST over the rest of this season....whatever happened, happened! We shall see though! (I'm getting ahead of myself yet again!)
- Does anyone like the mirroring going on here? Season 2, Ben (Henry) was held hostage by the survivors (even brought in by Sayid) and questioned for a long time. Here we see that Ben was initially the one questioning one of the survivors on if HE was one of them! Not to mention the rest of DHARMA's interrogation of Sayid that we will get to in a bit.
- Ben asks Sayid if Richard sent him. If you recall from season 3's "The Man Behind the Curtain" (or watched the "previously on LOST" for this episode), Ben and Richard had met before when Ben first arrived to the Island. Ben was going to leave DHARMA but Hippie style Richard stopped him and made him go back. Richard told him to wait and be patient, that it wasn't time yet. We learn in this episode that it has been 4 years since that meeting in the jungle. Ben tells Sayid that he has been patient and that he can help Sayid if HE is patient.
- We find out that the security cameras in the cell are video only and have no audio feed, according to Ben. Worth noting since Sawyer talks to Sayid freely later.
- A second meeting of Sayid and Ben actually does not occur. Sayid has a discussion with Roger Linus (Ben's Father). Roger asks Sayid how he got caught, Sayid has words with Roger for being a janitor. Roger strikes back with talks of Oldham (we'll get to him in a bit). But the payoff for this scene is when Ben shows up with a sandwich and is caught by Daddy. Ben is clearly scared. Roger gets a little violent pushing him into the bars of Sayid's cell. Ben admits that no one told him to bring the sandwiches. Sayid starts to piece together similar issues he had with his father.
Island Gossip Corner and Juliet's concerns
There isn't much for Kate, Hurley, Jack or Juliet to do in this episode but they do have their moments. Here is a quick summary.
- Juliet overcooks the bacon over concerns of their old friends returning to the Island. She is concerned that her simple life with Sawyer is over. She is concerned that Sayid will blow their cover. Sawyer is determined to not let that happen. He also tried to convince her that them returning doesn't change what Juliet and Sawyer have.
- Kudos to a commenter last week who caught that we found out Kate and Hurley's DHARMA jobs in last week's episode. Kate is a maintenance gal with Juliet. And Hurley? Fittingly a DHARMA Chef! We get a nice DHARMA cafeteria scene between Hurley, Jack and Kate where Hugo brings out some waffles.
- They discuss Sayid's situation. Kate was hoping that Jack made progress when he talked to Sawyer the night before. Jack informed them that Sawyer told him to take a hike and let him handle it. Jack seems to be totally fine with the new chain of command. Almost relieved that it doesn't have to be him. At this Kate offers to talk to Juliet. Hurley makes the big reveal that Juliet probably wouldn't say anything either because she is with Sawyer. Ahhhh Hurley, so subtle "They live together, like not as roommates? You know together like you guys were? Thought it was kinda obvious. I mean, who couldn't see that coming?" Good times! As always, we can rely on Hurley so speak for the fans that saw the Juliet/Sawyer storyline coming a mile away. But, oblivious Kate was the last to find out. Even asking Jack if he knew too.
- A later scene shows Juliet and Kate talking cars at work. Juliet finds out Kate knows about her and Sawyer to which she responds with she didn't know how to tell her herself without it coming off as her telling Kate to stay away. oooooooooohhhhh SNAP, Kate! You just got served! On the surface Kate tells Juliet that it is okay.
And thus, this ends this week's edition of Gossip Corner - LOST style! Back to the good stuff!
Interrogation of Sayid
- Horace and Radzinsky visit Sayid first trying to get him to talk. Horace snaps the handcuffs off. They think he has had issues with the hostiles and that maybe he could be turned to work for DHARMA. Sayid says nothing and is told that he has an hour to speak up, essentially before they take it to the next level with the mysterious Oldham.
- After Horace updates Sawyer on the situation, James offers to talk to Sayid. Sayid opens up to Sawyer about meeting a 12 year old Ben Linus. He questions how Sawyer can live with him. Sawyer explains because he has to. Sawyer then opens the cage and apologizes before he starts beating Sayid. Sawyer had a plan. Sayid would confess that he had intel on the Hostiles that he would give in exchange of living with the DHARMA crew. Sawyer had to make it appear that Sayid would not give up the information easily. Sayid does not want to do this. He asks Sawyer to let him go. Sawyer goes on and on about how he's created a good life there and people trust him and told Sayid to cooperate. Sayid still refuses.
- Later on, they come for Sayid to bring him to Oldham. Sawyer gives him one more chance to play ball.....nothing. Sawyer uses the tazer on him and he becomes incapacitated.
- Sawyer, Sayid, Radzinsky and Phil drive out into the jungle to some crazy tipi looking shelter. And we meet Oldham aka the 3rd Regular Cast member from Deadwood to appear on LOST. (Cassidy, Sawyer's baby mama and Pickett's Wife that gets shot by Sun. The name is escaping me right now!) Took me awhile to recognize him without the beard and top hat and ridiculous outfit. But that annoying voice is the same!
Update: Thanks commenter "TIM" for pointing out that Juliet's sister is also an actress from Deadwood..she played Calamity Jane! So there are 4 in total.
- There is a phonograph player playing a tune that I did not know. I'll update this bullet if it turns out to be anything significant!
- Sayid asks Sawyer who the man is. And of course, the name of the episode comes into play. "He's our You" explaining that he is the DHARMA torturer.
- Oldham concocts some truth-telling drug to feed to Sayid. What's that stuff they use in the Harry Potter books? Veritaserum? Sure seemed like that! They put Sayid in restraints which he is told is for HIS protection from the side effects of the drug.
- They force the cube thingy into Sayid's mouth. Oldham dtells him not to fight it, he will tell the truth either way. Oh he sure did! So much so, that they didn't believe him. Fantastic!
- What a comical scene: I'm a bad man, not a hostile, came BACK to the Island on Ajira flight 316. Originally crashed on Oceanic flight 815. Was on the Island for 100 days (ummm I believe it was 108 days Sayid!)...go ahead ask Sawyer!
- Before Sayid can point out Sawyer Radzinsky wants to know about the Flame. Sayid starts explaining what he knows about the DHARMA stations: The Flame is a communications station, The Pearl (the one near Yemi's plane) is for Observing other stations and the Swan was to study electro-magentism. Or at least it was until the Incident! Radznisky concerned that Sayid knows about the name of the Swan station even before it is built. He saw the model, he IS a spy!
- Sayid then tells them all that they are all going to die. Then he explains he knows all of this because he is from the future. Gotta love Oldham's "OOPS" when he thinks he needed to use less of the drug. Then Sayid gives his most sinister laugh and tells him that he used the perfect amount. Yikes!
Jury's Out
- Sayid is brought back to the Barracks and back to his cell while a large group of DHARMA officials meet at Horace and Amy's house to decide what to do with him.
- Radzinsky votes to kill Sayid. He knows too much. Horace wants more time to decide. Sawyer tries to convince everyone he should talk to him again. Radzinsky goes nuts. Man, no wonder this guy went nuts and blew his brains out. He was already a nutcase before pushing the button every 108 minutes!
- Radzinsky threatens to call Ann Arbor and let THEM make the call. We can only assume he is referring to the DeGroots at the University of Michigan who created the DHARMA Initiative. Ahhhh, it was nice to hear them referenced!
- Amy chimes in speaking for the people. She can't sleep with one eye open. They can't keep him here. They have a baby to worry about now. Oh come on Amy, it's only Ethan! He starts stealing babies later anyway!
- Regardless, Horace puts it to a vote. Everyone votes to have Sayid killed except Sawyer. But in order to keep his cover, Sawyer has to change his vote to make it unanimous.
- Sawyer makes one more attempt to get Sayid out of this mess. He opens his cell and tells Sayid to hit him in the face, grab the keys and make a run for it. Sayid refuses. He felt like he had no purpose when he returned to the Island. But now he knows exactly why he is here and is not going anywhere.
- Sawyer gives up and goes to talk to Kate. (although, with some hesitation first. Sorry Juliet, best get used to it!) Sawyer wants to know why they all came back. Sayid was talking about his purpose and he wants to know why they are all back. Kate doesn't know why anyone else came back, only why she did. But she didn't reveal what that purpose is. Because another conflict on LOST is always right around the corner!
The Break-Out
- Kate and Sawyer witness a burning DHARMA van heading right into one of the DHARMA buildings. DHARMAVILLE goes nuts. Sawyer runs int Jack and mentions how there have been no burning buses for 3 years and then they're back for 1 day! Ahh good times.
- We see DHARMA has a few fire hoses that Jack starts to use on the building.
- Sawyer mentions that building "15" is on fire and everyone needs to get there. Yep, those crazy numbers again!
- Anyway, turns out the fire was only a distraction for Ben to break Sayid out. Security guy Phil was summoned to the fire as well. Not sure why, but it made me think of when Walt set the raft on fire. Even though it was more closely tied to Charlie setting a fire as a distraction when he stole Aaron in the dreadful "Fire + Water" episode of season 2!
- We see Ben with his broken glasses from an encounter with his father. Sayid says that his father was a hard man as well. An emptional Ben goes on about how he hates it there. He wants to be taken away from DHARMA and brought to Sayid's people. Sayid accepts to do so. And explains that this is why he is there.
- Ben gets Sayid out and then there is some running in the jungle. And a DHARMA VAN drives by. It's Jin. He sees something moving and stops the van. Sayid hides Ben. He explains to Jin that Sawyer let him go but no one knows. Jin wants to radio it in to Sawyer first. Sayid knocks Jin out. Ben was impressed with the moves.
- Sayid tells Ben that he was right about him. That he is a killer. As Ben stands there confused, Sayid takes Jin's gun and shoots young Ben right in the heart. Ben falls to the ground. Sayid runs off into the night.
BOOM LOST!!
Okay, so get your shots in! Yes, in 2007, it appears that we see the DHARMA Barracks with DHARMA signs and pictures galore all over the place. So, Ben being shot here would help one's case to think that our survivors are in fact in 1977 for the first time and are changing the way history was once written. That eliminating Ben has eliminated the purge. Personally? I do not think it is as cut and dry as this. We were told in season 3 the rules of time travel. Everything has a way of course correcting itself. We have also seen people over and over again with the inability to die. Jack can't jump off the bridge, Michael can't kill himself, Ben can't shoot Widmore, surviving the crash of 815, the helicopter crash after the Island moved, Sawyer getting shot by an OTHER a few episodes ago and him not seeming to get shot at all, and of course even Locke getting shot by Ben conveniently where his missing kidney was. It seems that the effects are random with how this all works.
So what does this mean? Is Young Ben not dead? I'm inclined to think that he is not. We know Michael Emerson (older Ben) will not be phased out that easily being such a integral part of the cast these days. Let's think about it. Ben still appears to be a member of DHARMA right before the purge. So he was not meant to LEAVE DHARMA for good during this time period. But that doesn't mean Richard won't save him. Though at this point, he's face down in the jungle next to an unconscious Jin. Jin could bring Ben back to DHARMAVILLE, and then guess what? Maybe they'll need a surgery and there's only one man that they can ask to do it. Yep, you guessed it....not baby Ethan but janitor Jack Shephard! Tons of ways they can go with this.
I just hope they don't say he's dead and then raise him from the dead John Locke style. (of course, we don't know for sure if Locke is really alive or just another Christian Shephard) Ugh, I'm rambling I know. But before we get to the comments, just know that this episode did not phase me from my "WHATEVER HAPPENED, HAPPENED" stance on the time travel aspect of the show. Which means, in my head, something has to explain the events that happen to make it appear otherwise.
To avoid spoilers, I will refrain from telling you the name of next week's episode. But if you click on this link, you might feel a little enlightened!
Other than that, take your best shots at me. Explain to me how our crew is changing the course of the show. And I will make my best efforts to explain how this will NOT be the case! The war between LOST viewers has begun and it's all thanks to the introduction of TIME TRAVEL! I love it! Hope you enjoyed my ramblings as always. See you next week and NAMASTE!
This blog is also posted on Gather.com. Feel free to check it out and send some votes my way! You may also stumble upon additional discussions there!
Special thanks as always to Sledgeweb for providing awesome screen shots on their site.
94 comments:
Great recap, Mike, as usual! Obviously, a lot depends on whether Ben is dead or not. If he is, then did he just sacrifice himself? He gathered up everyone for the flight knowing (or hoping) that Sayid would go back in time and kill him? Because he knows that Locke is the "right one" and Ben is the "wrong one"? Of course that assumes Ben is thought to be "the right one". And if he is dead, does that mean that 2007 Ben just died in the tent where he is injured with Locke standing over him?
If you watch the Untangled web series they do little cuts that look like comic books when they show ben getting shot and if you pause it at one of the stills its child ben bandged up with tubes sticking out of him, i believe its a picture of him in what will probably be next weeks episode showing that he is definately not dead
Mike, let me know wut u think about this: we've talked bout how last week sawyer showed jack that hes in charge now and that he thinks things thru unlike Jack, and he really tried to put Jack in his place. However, we know that in the natural order of things on the show, Jack has always been the leader of the group. A scenario I could see happening is with Sayid escaping, the DI will seriously question Lafleur's abilities and judgement as head of security, it will raise doubts, and I think Jack is going to operate on the wounded young Ben, in the process showing his "apititude" is higher than that of a janitor, and also reestablishing himself as the go-to guy of the group, thats just an idea I had last night, lemme kno.
Brendan, it doesn't sound very far fetched...i even made a similar comment about Jack operating on Ben.
The thing is...if Jack is revealed to be a star Surgeon...that might raise concern to who he is and how he ended up being a janitor on the island! So it might be more of a case where Jack will be needed to get him and his friends out of some trouble with Sawyer's original cover story.
Definitely could go a lot of ways! All I know is...that all of it has already happened from a 2007 perspective! lol
Mike, great recap. Two comments and then my thoughts.
1. Oldham is the FOURTH Deadwood actor. Cassidy, Pickett's wife that Sun killed, and you forgot Juliet's sister (Jane from Deadwood).
2. Did it look like Sawyer was surprised that Kate answered the door? Or at least that Kate was hiding something (someone) who was in the house? Probably nothing major but that's what it looked like to me.
I loved the episode. LOST has so many great characters, but personally I am drawn to the tragic figures like Locke (best character IMHO), Sayid and Ben, for example. I really believe Sayid was NOT a natural born killer (cue Oliver Stone) but his life as we've seen has been one unfortunate downfall of events after another. He has tried so hard to be good and do the right thing but has always paid a price for it (think Nate from Six Feet Under for those who watched that). He was forced to become a torturer. He was tricked into becoming Ben's assassin. His daddy-issues have plagued him since childhood. Great stuff by the LOST writers in giving us such deep and complex characters like Sayid.
~Tim
ahhh thanks Tim...gotta make that fix then I'll read the rest of your comments! lol
Mike, you're right it would raise questions if Jack performed a successful surgery on Ben, but didnt it raise any eyebrows when Juliet shows up when Amy is delivering her baby and she talks and acts like a doctor?
Brendan, different story with Juliet. She wasn't "recruited" as Jack allegedly was; remember Jack "took" an aptitude test and scored as a janitor. BIG difference between someone found in the jungle and allowed to stay in Dharmaville and work on cars.
Touche' Brendan. I thought you might come back with that. I have no rebuttal! lol These DHARMA folk just don't seem to be too bright do they?
It did seem like Kate was hiding something...I agree probably nothing...but it did seem like she looked in the house to see if anyone was listening. I don't think Jack is living with her. Or else they would have had the cafeteria conversation the night before! lol
Agree on the complexity of Sayid...the writers have really fleshed him out well!
Agreed, Ben will hav to live somehow tho, or else it will cancel out everything that Ben did in past seasons as an adult, which would make the show a joke, so we kno the writers want to avoid that.
I'll accept Anonymous's rebuttal and agree! lol
This comment is kinda about last week's ep...I just re-watched it before "HOY"...did anyone notice that Mile's hair was graying? What's up with that?
Another great recap Mike. Let’s say that Jin wakes up, brings Harry Potter back to Dharmaville. Janitor Jack takes the lead and saves the day once again by successfully operating on young Ben.
My question is, does present day Ben now have a scar where the bullet/surgery took place? And if so, is this not a reference to changing the past?
'episode did not phase me from my "WHATEVER HAPPENED, HAPPENED" stance on the time travel aspect of the show. Which means, in my head, something has to explain the events that happen to make it appear otherwise. '
Exactly ! LOL - I was one of those last week who was so puzzled by Christian's Dharmaville still looking so Dharma-ish. But I am not convinced of either theory at this point - which is the fun of it. They just keep throwing in the red herrings to make us wonder.
I really cannot believe that they would kill Ben off and have another whole timeline without him - so agree with you there.
I am just really intrigued as to what explanation they can have to show Dharmaville untouched by others in 2007 without having changed the past. It's gonna be a doozy !
Can't see how workman Jack can fix Ben - how'd they explaing that? But dharma already knows Juliette has some skills. Jules fixing up little Ben might be the start of Ben's fixation with her - Jack could assist though. LOL
Interesting though that there is Ben in 77 passed out in the jungle, but there is also ben in 07 passed out in Hydra !
Tim - I also thought that Sawyer looked surprised ! I wondered if it was Jack's house that Sawyer went knocking on and if Jack & Kate are gonna play house.
anonymous..didn't notice the grey hair...but my guess? the actor is greying! lol
Don...if there's a scare...there must've always been a scar. Do we ever get a bare chest shot of Ben? The only time i can kind of thing of is when Jack performs the surgery on Ben's spine. but i don't think we do see it.
MJ - i'm definitely intrigued of how all of this will be explained too. Good call on Juliet's assistance. I'm sure that Ben's interactions with Juliet as a child helps his fixation with her...even his recruiting of her in the future. It totally kills my whole crazy theory on Sarah being Annie though! lol
Thanks for the props on the recap guys. And thanks for continuing to read my mindless rants!
ugh...scare = scar in my post above. whoops!
and thing = think!
man...i'm not on my game today!
I'm in the "whatever happened, happened" camp, too. Kid Ben is going to have to live. But it was still a great ending. And what if the bullet went all the way through to his back and caused a scar that eventually turns into a tumor? I'm not pathologist, but just a thought... :)
-MC
I concur with the "whatever happened happened" theory.
Plus if young Ben did die, wouldn't that create a paradox? How could older Ben ever recruit the Oceanic 6 to return to the Island if he died on the island in 1977?
Mike,
you seem totally on your game!
Thanks for the recap, I am with you, Whatever happened, happened --Sayid always shot Ben --
Ben must learn the future at some point from them, and his whole 'I Always Have A Plan' is that he knows what is going to happen like following a blueprint of time. This explains to me how he can stay so calm/emotionless, because he doesn't have fear, he knows that he will live to bring them all back, his plan is to just redo what he has done.
Jennifer
Bens not dead. Just like Locke conveniently didn't have a kidney where he was shot, Ben doesn't have a heart where he was shot. So there you go. lol
Thinking about time and time loops, and I just don't believe the paradox stuff or how some folks on other boards don't seem to 'get' the time travel on lost and that what is, is. The alternate reality,changing future concepts bug me, but then I get a bit sad realizing that time loops take all the free will fun out of the equation.
Jennifer
Mike, I love the recaps. I went back and read the earliest one to help me remember what has been going on for the past 5 years.
I would like to second the idea that Kate was definitely hiding something. I would like to remind everyone that in Season 3 when Kate, Jack, Juliet, et. all returned from Othersville(the Barracks) that Kate seeing Jack and Juliet eating dinner together caused her to "jump" James. I think the same thing could be happening here; she hears about James and Juliet and runs to Jack.
I am also part of the "whatever happened, happened" camp. So young Ben must survive.
I would also like to point out that we haven't seen Claire, Daniel, Bernard, Rose, and Vincent for a fairly long time. I still want to know what happens to all of them.
And one final thing. Since I missed the live episode and had to watch it on ABC's player, I was hoping someone could point me to the trailer for next weeks episode.
Daniel
Mike your recaps are excellent…This is always the first site I go to after an episode…I think that Ben will have to live and that we can’t speculate about the future being altered until we have confirmation that Ben is dead…I think Ben will live and that him being shot will be the reason for his dark turn…The writers are not going to change the future with so much invested in it…and Ben was lying to Sayid about the Men working for Widmore because if he wanted Ben and Sayid dead he had his location otherwise Locke wouldn’t have found Sayid…Widmore could have killed Sayid the whole time so was he really killing Widmore’s associates or was Ben lying?
Along the lines of "Whatever happened, happened," Sayid could have still killed Ben and someone else could have done the things that Ben had done previously. The events could be the same, just with someone else doing them. This might explain Dharmaville in 2007...the end result was still the purge, but Ben's "replacement" may not have decided to move into the village.
I agree with Jenn and it ties into my point in the original post. If Ben is dead, he sacrificed himself because he "knows" that he is not "The One". Locke or one of the O6'ers is the one. How that all ties into the future of the show, who knows.
Of course if he lives that theory goes down the toilet.
When I heard Oldham speak, I was waiting for him to say "Hi. I'm Larry. This is my brother Daryl... and this is my other brother Daryl"
ATTENTION my fellow Lost Brothers & Sisters... apologies to Desmond... lets get real FOR A MOMENT...IF YOU DARE!!!!
I love this show ( and Mike's blog) as much as the rest of you...but given what has happened on this show...especially this year...isn't fair to ask the following question:
HAS LOST JUMPED THE SHARK!!!!
The next thing you know we are going to see Fonzie from Happy Days on one of the screens at The Pearl stationon on a motorcycle getting ready for his infamous jump ...(the name "Jumping the Shark" is the moment that the shows writers have run out of ideas and pushed the plots to the point where the show is in a downward spiral and basically finished, hence Fonzie jumping over a sharks on his motorcycle)...it might be the ultimate metaphor for this season.
Bottom line: The writers of this show are very close to crossing the line of believability with all of the various time lines and time travel to the point that in order to make these story lines come together our collective intelligence will insulted to the point of no return.
The weekly intrigue on all levels is what keeps us coming back for more. However, if the pay off for the intrigue are story lines that make us feel that we are being overly manipulated, than we become disenchanted and lose interest....sort of lost on Lost.
Being lost on Lost has for many years been the beauty of the show...but if feels lately that in order to bring the show to a conclusion that our collective loyalty... and the writers integrity... may be sacrificed.
Forget whether Ben lives or dies...we all know that somehow he will survive this latest episode...the real question is whether the shows ever waining integrity can survive while trying to tie all of the lose end together... I AM SURE WE WILL ALL STAY TUNED TO FIND OUT.
Sometimes... Whatever Happened, Happened... just isn't good enough.
Peace.
Great work on the recap mike.What at ending! these guys really know what they are doing.
The chance of Ben being dead is pretty low,Sayeed did take a good shot, but it wasn't good enough to be lethal.He can be saved with prompt and proper surgery ( yes I am a doctor)
Considering the fact that Ben has been freshly assaulted by his father, This may be the best time for Richard to come to his rescue causing Ben to really seek vengeance on his dad.
also,I don`t think that Ben is the type of person who would consider him self wrong,specially after all that hes been through. BUT we can never say if the loss of his daughter made him think otherwise, and make him want to undo the wrong that he did.
Hmm. I'm liking Horseman and Jenn's thoughts. Goes right in line with the course correcting too. Ben might not be there - but the major plot points will still play out, but with some other characters as the driving force - perhaps even some of the O6 driving it this time.
It all, of course, depends on whether Ben lives. And I am wondering if they will even tell us next week ! Would not put it past them to make us wait to find out. LOL
And to Alby - no - am not feeling that this show has jumped the shark at all. I enjoy it more and more each week in fact. No other show on TV makes me think this hard. LOL
Just a thought...
Although Sayid placed the bullet squarely in Ben's heart, we will find out Ben has the rare condition of situs inversus where his heart (and all his organs) are mirrored from their normal position. He will be seriously hurt, but he will survive.
YOUNG BEN IS DEAD. But that won't stop him from continuing on. His own murder is what Richard told him to patient for. The leader of the others has to die (maybe has to be murdered) to become leader. I bet Richard was murdered at one time (thus why he no longer ages), and became leader. Ben is his destined successor, and had to be patient for his killing to happen so he can become leader. Now, it is John's time, which is why Ben realized he would have to murder John instead of letting him commit suicide in order for destiny to take its course.
The hole in my theory is that little Ben, after being murdered, does age into an adult.
--Nicole H.
interesting theory Nicole. all the facts fit for it...except like you said...Ben aging. And where does Christian Shephard fit into all of it?
I really am thinking he's not dead though.
Thanks everyone for the very kind words on the blog by the way! And woa...reading my first blog post? How did that go for you? They've definitely become a lot more in-depth wouldn't you say? :-)
Just want to add to the Shark Jumping conversation....the producers have said they are actively trying to jump the shark...because the minute they feel they are not pushing themselves...then that's when the show would fail. I think they are treading on thin ice with the time travel stuff right now...but i think the payoff will be rewarded. Plus like you said...the episodes themselves are fantastic this season. I think they will fit into the larger puzzle once it's complete. I'm loving it but also very scared about the territory they are in. There's no reward in being SAFE! lol
Yea i dont understand y so many people complain these days how the show has gotten far fetched. Naturally, a show has to grow over five seasons, so many people loved the beginning of the show when the survivors were just getting to know the island, did they honestly hope or expect the plot would stall there forever? It had to get more complex as the plot unfolded especially with them returning to the island, this new time travel angle is the only way to keep viewers really interested while explaning so many loose ends from over the years, I'm happy with where the show is, people should accept that shows like this tend to grow.
The real problem with lost viewership started when they didn't have a contract for the remainder of the show. I think it was during season 3 when they were kind of stalling with the unfolding of the plot. It is true that most people I mention lost to say that they "lost interest" at some point. I however think there was a plan at the beginning and that the writers have done a brilliant job of tying it all together. I love the disjointed timelines and literary references, but admit that it does take a bit of homework to get all you can out of the show. I will stick around and reserve my ultimate judgement until the end.
Speaking of homework, below is a link to a website by some german guy who puts together one of the most comprehensive lost theories I have ever seen. Whether he is right or not is one thing, but the way he assembles the entire lost history and plot into several chapters is incredible. It is a must read for any lost junkie. As with this site, It has made my lost viewing experience richer, so I thought that I would share it with you folks. -Cheers!
http://www.quasiadam.com/theoryenglish.html
Mike, by the way, the truth serum u were talkin bout, id say they were basically sayin to the viewers that they were givin Sayid acid, in the movie The Good Shepherd they also gave it to a prisoner thinkin it was an effective truth serum, thats just what they thought back in the 60s and 70s.
Mike,
To add to my theory (glad you think it's interesting) - I think there's some Christ symbolism going on here. The chosen one is killed to be resurrected by the island to then lead the island's people. --Nicole H.
what if kid ben experiences the powers of the island by surviving the bullet to the heart and that is the reason he kills the DI to keep the island to himself?
Daniel Farraday: You can't change the future. *THE CONSTANT*
Eloise Hawking: The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting. That man was supposed to die. That was his path just as it's your path to go to the island. You don't do it because you choose to, Desmond. You do it because you're supposed to. *FLASHES BEFORE YOUR EYES*
There will be an explanation coming, fellow Losties. Just like Locke getting shot and left for dead and just like Desmond saving Charlie's life, the universe will course correct and the future will not be changed. What is going to be amazing (hopefully) is how the writers decide to tackle this. They obviously have an idea in mind and left us viewers with a great cliffhanger, as they often do.
Sayid didn't shoot Young Ben because he *chose* to, he did it because he was *supposed* to. Young Ben was meant to get shot. That was his path.
~Tim
I finally saw this episode online and I have to say that I was as shocked by the ending as you were, Mike.
I'm in the "young Ben survives" camp. What you said about Ben still being with DHARMA during the Purge makes perfect sense. Could he possibly spend 15 years as a double agent? It doesn't seem feasible.
I'm surprised no one's discussing Sayid's connection to the Others. I started suspecting in the middle of the episode that he had some connection to them, but when he told young Ben that his purpose was to take him to the Others that confirmed it. What happened to Sayid out in the jungle? He must've met up with the Others and somehow joined their ranks. Perhaps he landed in a different time during the crash of 316 and has been with them for years? Then again, you'd think they would've found a way to get him out of those handcuffs after all that time. I suppose he could've just put up with it like Jin did in the first season.
To address a few commenters:
I mentioned that Miles was graying in last week's comments. It made me wonder if he could actually be Chang's baby or if he'd be too old.
I don't think LOST has jumped the shark. My brother even says that this has been his favorite season so far. Since part of LOST's intrigue is all the mysteries, the closer we get to solving them the more I love it.
Maybe I was imagining things, but I thought in the scene when Ben came to release Sayid, he spoke in the past tense about his father. Is it possible that Ben killed his father while setting up the distraction with the burning van?
That was such an amazing episode!My jaw dropped at the ending, totally did not see that coming!
I am not sure what i think about the "what ever happens happens" statement. I thought thats what i thought, but then lately I have been hearing some good arguements and now I don't know which one i believe.
Also(just a thought me and a friend had)if the 815ers that are on the island now lived for another 30ish years, there would be to sets of them(themselves from the past would crash land), and if what ever happens happens is true, then time would pass and there would be many sets of them, some really old and some their original age,lol, and it would keep going and they would always be there. I have been thinking about that and just thought I would say something. so yeah.....great blog, love reading it, it gets me through the days without LOST,lol.
Just stumble apon this, we may seen that guy from the tent before (Oldham) in "Exodus" wearing a cap.
http://www.quasiadam.com/theory/chapterx_files/okt1.jpg
other Mike...i don't think it would really make sense about Roger Linus being killed. He's not supposed to die until the purge which is 15-16 years later. But I guess it really depends on what camp you're in when it comes to time travel!
mary, thanks for the compliments on the blog! I'm really guessing that our favorite time travelers won't be in 1977 past this season. In fact, i think a climatic event in the Season Finale may cause them to end up back where they belong (or somewhere else at least). If you want to know what event I'm talking about....
******MILD SPOILER**************
look up the name of the season finale! lol
*********************************
that's just my thought though. I don't think the writers/producers wish to overcomplicate things. I think they were looking for a different storytelling device to answer a lot of our DHARMA-related questions this year before we get into the major END-GAME next season. They had introduced elements of Time Travel in previous seasons.....and they just upped their game and took some chances with THIS season to get their story out there. again...my opinion!
SRI - it does look a lot like the guy....but here's the thing...i really doubt in season 1 they were even thinking about a character named OLDHAM, let alone casting an in-demand actor who was pretty busy on the set of DEADWOOD at the time! But, hey....what do I know?! lol I just think sometimes we look for TOO MANY links to older episodes....like when we thought some guy changing a light bulb in Hurley's season 1 flashback was "Henry Gale." It is crazy what we dig up that the producers never intended!!
Just my thoughts again! btw...the official LOST podcast is up...ITUNES or lost.abc.com Some good info about this past episode and next week's episode....good questions asked and answered....and 13 finalists for the "SECRET FINALE SCENE CODE NAME" I'm going to try and list them later if I get a chance. they're hysterical. I agree with Damon though....i don't know how you CAN NOT go with the "Hooded Leprechaun" lol
TV Guide has their Getting Lost vid up. They interview the kid playing young Ben. Not spoilery - but hinty so beware to those who don't like that.
http://www.tvguide.com/News/Getting-Lost-Ben-1004447.aspx
They also say they will have a Team Darlton video up later today.
okay..can't find that list of Secret codenames for the final scene of the season finale. Let's recap what they've been for the past 4 seasons.
Season 1: The Bagel
Season 2: The Challah
Season 3: Rattlesnake in the Mailbox
Season 4: Frozen Donkey Wheel
Season 5? They're giving it to the fans to determine. Here were some of the suggestions I remember.
The Twinkie (multi-layered with a wonderful center always leaving you wanting more)
Baby Diaper covered in Barbecue Sauce (no explanation provided)
The 5th Toe (good one!!)
The Hooded Leprechaun
Smokey's Dorm Room
Zombie Bake Sale
The Joop (the Chimp from the LOST EXPERIENCE who based on a joke in the podcast will explain everything about the island in the series finale)
Jack is Pregnant
that's all i can remember for now...anyone else listen to it and remember more?
btw...the Q&A was really good too. Some highlights.
By the end of season 5 we will see another glimpse of the 4 toed state and be able to deduce from the 3 shots we've seen of it...exactly what it is a statue of.
By the end of season 5 we will know why Miles wanted 3.2 million dollars specifically.
We will learn why Ben killed Locke and didn't let him kill himself....(and by the way they discussed how it will be revealed, they seem to indicate if Ben survived/didn't survive the Sayid shooting. Still seems like a no brainer to me but I will not completely spoil!)
They said that there will be a payoff for Jughead...and that they got their inspiration from THE STAND. Draw your Own Conclusions. I didn't read it, anyone want to fill me in? lol
That's all I can remember about that too!
They also talked about whose character-centric episode is next week and hinted at what information we will most likely learn in the flashbacks. I'm excited!
They also hinted that the name of next week's episode is probably the way you should be looking at Ben's shooting. But also left doubt in there that the title could have been ironic. I still think based on what they've said in the past...that the debate has already been resolved in season 3!
Sorry for being vague...just don't want to spoil for the spoiler-weary! We all have our different tolerance levels for what we consider spoilerish afterall!
Whew...that was almost worth another blog post! sorry for the book!
Hey - is Oldham the guy who 'disappeared' from the picture last week ???
Forget my last post - in my own mind he looked a little like Oldman - but I found the picture and he doesn't.
I would assume Ben will have to be saved because it seems like the 70's will be the same as when they landed on flight 815. Ben was injured last time and he was saved by jack happening to appear. I would love to see Ben end up needing jack’s help at a point where jack could save him but chooses not to since the whole fate vs free will.
Mike I would like to believe in the "WHATEVER HAPPENED HAPPENED but I feel that they are trying to divide the viewers with the whole fate vs free will. That has always been the huge debate between Locke and jack where Locke believes in fate and jack believes in free will. I think we will find out which is true at the end of the show.
Whoever brought up the religious comment I was just thinking when I read Christ the first thing that popped into my head was Christian shepherd. His name shortened is Christ. As well the last name shepherd. Christian has been the shepherd over the island pretty much guiding people along.
Mike,
Thanks as always for a great read. It helps get it all organized in my head. Well, sort of organized...
Some thoughts:
Kid Ben may be resurrected by the life-giving powers of the island, the same powers that healed Rose and Locke. If he is saved by ISLAND LIFE FORCE, maybe this is the beginning of his desire and need to control the island
Our O6 group has to get out of 1977somehow. Will time travel return?
No, this season has not jumped the shark. It is as intriguing and mind-bending as ever. This may be my favorite season, though I say that about every season.
Thanks for the spoiler alerts -- I appreciate them. When the show ends, I run from the room, my hands over my ears, so I don't hear or see anything about the next episode. I want to be blown out of the water when a major surprise occurs, and I am.
Gracias,
Kathleen
Mark, i think the faith vs Science debate is still ongoing and will be until the end of the show (and may actually not even be resolved then).... TIME TRAVEL and things having already happened? A little different.
The producers have long said how Time Travel works on their show...there is ONE TIMELINE. No alternate futures will happen. Things will be course corrected. The initial sources of this? Season 3 - Flashes Before Your Eyes and season 4 - THE CONSTANT. This season, Dan reemphasizes these points.....but we are still meant to question it. Sayid is the first one to challenge the rule to see if it holds true. While they are encouraging debates over the subject, I think we already have our answer!
and indeed i am sure Christian was named that way intentionally!
kathleen, I wish I had your willpower to avoid the previews for next week...but I'm usually so amped up from the cliffhanger that I need to see a little more. And I love to hear the producers' comments on the show as we move along. So I always consider that stuff non-spoilerish (for ME) I still don't know exactly how things will go in the next episode...and I'm still blown away by the show.
This season has been Top Notch...and I have faith the producers will wrap up the time travel stuff really well.
And yes, I believe by the end of this season...our trip to 1977 will be over and they will begin their final mission ...fulfill their purpose for being on the Island. We'll see!
Really good comments,
Lets talk about Kid Ben getting shot. If he survives this wound, why would he want to later join up with the Hostiles? If he still believes that Sayid is an Hostile and he shot him.
As for the "war", could this be the begining of it? Poor Amy is already scared to death. I can see Phil or Radzinsky shooting at anything that moves in the jungle, I believe DI, is going to say to heck with the Truce since boy wonder got shot.
As for Sayid, Does anyone else see him becoming A soldier for the Hostiles? or will he wander the jungle like Danielle? And no matter what happens to him, if Kid Ben lives, wouldnt you think he will come after him again?
I don't know if Sayid would go after Ben if he's convinced that it wouldn't change anything.
I also don't know if the war will begin just yet...unless it's supposed to last for 15 years! (the Purge doesn't happen until much later)
I also think...if Ben survives...that at some point he may find out about the TIME TRAVELING crew...which could give him a lot of advanced knowledge in the future...allowing him to be 10 steps ahead of the game then.
that's just my thought process right now though. this whole whatever happened, happened concept works for every situation except for interactions between Daniel and Desmond. Both encounters fo the 2 resulted in memories being received at a later time (once for Daniel..and another for Desmond) We have been told that Desmond is SPECIAL and the rules don't apply to him though (whatever that means)
But this is an extended period of time that our Time Travelers are assimilated into DHARMA....surely there can't be entire blocks of the past that Ben couldn't remember until they happened for the 2007 versions of Sawyer, Kate, Jack and crew (stuck in 1977)
So that is the big hiccup that is giving me headaches right now. Don't know how to answer it...I can barely explain what my confusion is! lol But...I'm sure they have a plan!!!
And until that plan is unfolded for us....I think that whatever is happening to the time travelers currently enlisted in DHARMA (and Sayid)....has ALWAYS happened in the grand timeline of LOST that we have been watching since season 1. Those time travelers and us just didn't know about it until they/we experienced it for ourselves! lol
Desmond??? that's just a discussion for another day!
Mike,
I wonder if the statement "the rules dont apply to Desmond because he is special" and Ben saying after his daughter was shot that "Widmore wasn't playing by the rules anymore" have any correlation? Hmmm. Desmond, Penny, Widmore, Alex, Ben....
A couple of follow-up points to questions posed above...I thought lil Ben said "I really hated him" too but every transcript I find says it is actually "I really hate it here."
I also thought Kate was hiding something. At first I assumed Sawyer was at Jack's house looking for Jack when Kate answered the door. Do we know for sure that he went to Kate's and not Jack's?
Great blog Mike, Ive been reading it all season, great job. I have to say I strongly disgree with anyone saying the show is getting too far-fetched. I like it as much as ever!
Personally, what I love about all of this time travel is that it opens up a whole new way of viewing of the rest of the show:
-For instance, we were (or I was at least) always questioning how the Others already new everything about the main 815ers (Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Sayid, etc.) the second their plane crashed on the island in season 1. It seemed like the Others had some hand in bringing them to the island/causing the plane crash. But, now we see that the Others had been following the 815ers/gathering information on them because Ben had already met them back in 1977!
-We were always led to believe that Ben was a super-genius in that he could always be ten steps ahead of everyone else. But alot of that was just because he already knew a lot of what had to happen, since he experienced it back in 1977. for example, He knew Sayid, Jack, Kate, Hurley, etc. would all make it back to the island after they left because he then met them in 1977
-Ben is a deft manipulator, he can read people incredibly well and anticipate their thoughts and actions. We see this when he "first" meets Sayid as "Henry Gale" back in season two. He seems to know Sayid backwards and forwards minutes after meeting him. But this is only because back in 1977 Sayid told him: "you were right, I am a killer," and shot him!
A couple other things to think about:
The leaders of the Others are chosen because they're "special"
Up until this season, we were left to wonder why Richard kept stopping in to check on Locke as grew up. It seemed like he had just been "chosen" by the island and that Richard just knew he was special. But it turns out that the *only* reason Richard and the Others think Locke is special is because Locke foretold his own arrival 50 years prior.
Not saying that that isn't special in itself, but something to think about.
We obviously have to assume Ben isnt dead. Somehow he is going to survive a gunshot to the chest at point blank range. Wouldnt it be interesting if Richard thinks Ben is special because he survives this gunshot wound? And thus, Ben would have become the leader of the others just because of Sayid attempting to break the "whatever happened, happened" rule....
All this time travel stuff also raises alot of chicken or the egg questions like:
Did Dharma name Desmond's "Hatch" the Swan because Sayid told them that that's what it is called in the future?
If whatever happened, happened then why doesn't Sawyer, Jack, Kate, Hurley, Juliet, Sayid, Jin and Ben remember eachother from when their plane crashes in 2004???
Mike V,
Interesting tidbit about Lost and the relationship to The Stand.
I read it years ago (there was a lame miniseries in the 90's).
Some similarities off the top of my head:
God vs Satan (good vs evil)
Bad guys had bomb, I think (Jughead)
A plague wipes out most of mankind (Purge)
Pregnant girl with 2 guys fighting over her (Kate, Jack, Sawyer?)
In the end, God (Island) takes charge and destroys evil.
Survivors are left to start a new society.
Great book for all you losties to read!
Thinking about Jughead,
Maybe the leaking bomb eventually explodes and wipes out a large portion of people and the island or they are killed by radiation (the great sickness?)
I still have the Matrix storyline in the back of my head; what ever happened, happened and everything will take place as before and be reset (by the island?)
Probably over thinking the issue :-)
noel, your theory could actually come true knowing how crazy the writers are...
i think the episode wasn't WOW-ish but it was good. HOW do they come up with all these wacky ideas and turn them into a tv show... i mean, REALLY think about it.
i wonder if even the creators sometimes don't understand how they got where they are today with the show lol.
lovely blog btw (:
HJA, thanks for the compliments...everything you mentioned is kinda how i'm viewing this time travel stuff as well...lots of chicken/egg loopy stuff where there's no way to determine what happened first! same with the compass Richard gives to Locke...where did the Compass ever come from? Richard in the future gives to locke who gives to Richard in the past. Is that how he originally got the compass? crazy!!! lol Time travel stuff can really drive you bonkers if you think about it too much!
one thing though...i think Radzinsky does refer to the hatch as the SWAN in the NAMASTE episode even before Sayid mentioned it in this week's episode.
Mike the Plumber...thanks for the recap on THE STAND. Very interesting stuff going on there. I'm gonna guess that some kind of explosion might be in order. And considering Dan talked about exposure to Electromagnetism OR RADIATION (in THE CONSTANT) causing time travel effects....perhaps that's where Jughead will come into play. who knows??? lol
anonymous on everyone knowing each other in 2004...i don't think anyone is suggesting that they WOULD know each other. in 2004..that is the initial moment in their lives that they are ending up on the island. their future selves are the ones that end up in the past....even if they stayed in the past until 2004...they would be much older than and at a different time in their lives than the 2004 versions. Same concept with 1977....there are YOUNGER versions of themselves that exist in 1977 (off of the island). Make sense?
Wonder if young Ben is dead and the island reincarnates him ala Locke and Christian. To keep Ben on a par with Locke and Christian of course implies that he is dead and that he must go through a time warp while dead, reincarnating (in some shape or form) on the other side.
Or if Juliet saves him and that starts his infatuation with her.
One question - having a brain cramp - was it Ben or someone else who told us not too long ago that "the island saved me."?
Wow , I seriously think this episode was amazing.After reading the blog and all the comments there is much to think about. I'm in the camp that Ben didn't really die, because if he did then would the 815ers have never met Ben because technically he was already dead? This stuff can get pretty confusing with all the time travel stuff but it makes me love it even more! Mike you do a great job at blogging and my friend Mary introduced me to LOST and this blog so thanks to her too! Where are the producers taking this episode??? I don't know but it makes me want to keep watching!
Ben's not dead
I can not wait for next episode, the wait is killing me! the next episode is going to be amazing!
Am I the only one who sees a "Dr Emmitt Brown Bullett Proof Vest" moment coming here? Why do I see Ben going back to warn young Ben to take precautions prior to freeing Sayid? A la Marty McFly writing the letter in 1955 warning Doc that he is going to be shot by the Libyan Nationalists in 1985. If young Ben were really dead then wouldn't 1977 Sayid (who is really in present time) immeidately lose the bad memories of what Ben did to him. Because if he is really dead then non of those bad things Ben made Sayid do actually happened. Unless of course "Whatever Happend, Happened".... ;-) Just my 2 cents....
Also, I am truly convinced that Widmore hired Ilana to bring Sayid on the plane knowing full well that the Ajiara Flight was going to bring Sayid back to 1977 where he will face young Ben. Widmore is well aware of Sayid's hatred toward Ben and knows that he would love the opportunity to take him out before he grows into the monster Sayid feels he is. When Ben walked on that plane and saw Sayid there his jaw almost hit the floor. It was at that moment he realized that Widmore had positioned himself for a strike on his King (the island) in this sick game of Chess these two have going on. They are playing with everyone's lives like they are a piece of a Chess Board.
Man I love this show!! There better not be a "Sopranos Ending" in May 2010....
I thoroughly enjoyed your organized and complete recap.
Thanks Harry! Glad you find enjoyment out of my endless ramblings!
yeah...i'm sticking to the WHATEVER HAPPENED HAPPENED still...i love Back to the Future...and i love what they did with it...but they didn't care about creating ALTERNATE FUTURES and all of that fun stuff. LOST has said they don't want to confuse anyone with their already hard to follow 6 season story. They want to stick to ONE Linear Timeline which you can move back and forth through time on...but never create an ALTERNATE STREET.
We have seen Sayid put this to the test now to see if it's true. and my guess is that we will most certainly see that it is!
I just don't see any other way they can go with it! But we'll see.
yes, i agree. I think I would be very disappointed if they created an alternate time period where Ben died. It would be very confusing if they did too, I think
Okay, I read through the comments this time, and I was just thinking. Can a bullet wound cause spinal tumors? Is this why Ben had a tumor that needed to be operated on? I am amazed that this week's debate is over the theories surrounding whatever happened, happened. I want to know what happened to Sun, and why she wasn't transported to the 70's. I am rewatching Lost from the beginning, and it is interesting that I just watched the episode with Rosseau, and how her group got "sick", so she had to shoot them, but it took four more seasons to actually see the story unfold. I am addicted to Lost and this blog. Thanks Mike!
New Doc Jensen!
So - what if we are all sort of right ? LOL
There has to be some purpose or need for the producers to send our losties back in time. We know that we have Ben and Widmore on opposite sides.
So what if in the past our returnees really DO start changing things, and we see the island doing some course corrections, but not all !! The two sides of Ben vs Widmore are represented by things change vs the past can't change and that is the war that keeps being referenced ??
Now I am rambling. ;-D But I keep coming back to there has to be a point for the producers to take us down this path - and that point can't be just that the past can't be changed - there has to be more to be learned from this experience.
TV Guide has an interview with the actor playing young Ben. Warning - is VERY hinty about things, but very interesting. Of course, that's if the actors are telling the truth in these interviews any way.
http://www.tvguide.com/News/Lost-preview-Beaumon-1004584.aspx
yeah...there has to be a point for them bringing them to the past. But what if the point is simply because they were ALWAYS there? If they were always there...they HAD to travel back in time to play out events that have already happened. And putting them in the past is just another method of showing us events in the Island's past from a new perspective. Ben ALWAYS was shot...it helps mold him into the person he becomes (not fully according to the young actor playing him). The LOSTIES could be partial causes for the "INCIDENT" mentioned in the Swan orientation video....and we can now see it from a 1st person perspective (this is an assumption/guess not a spoiler! lol) And maybe the reprecussions of that INCIDENT will explain why they had to be in the past. what purpose they served.
I just think there are too many hints that we've already seen that suggest that they aren't changing anything. of course...according to Doc Jensen...maybe this will change when we hear what Dan's revised theories on being in the past are. We already know that Richard went to see Locke based on Locke visiting him in the past. If they are changing things in the past by being there...how would this ever have happened if Locke wasn't there initially in 1954? How does Richard in the future have knowledge of Locke's time travels if it hasn't happened yet (he tells Locke "you will tell me" before he gives him the compass). Because in the linear time line....this already has happened in the future too! Will we see Dan talk to young Charlotte in this version of the past? The evidence would suggest YES we will. But if Dan has recognized a wrinkle in the theory...maybe we won't.
But come on...erasing the PURGE from ever existing? I just think that would be a little too far for this show. I don't see it happening.
And of course...the EXCEPTION TO THE RULE.....Desmond. He is unique and special. What does this mean? Surely, we still need to find that out. And WHY is he unique and special? Because he blew up the Hatch? and if the LOSTIES end up being involved with the Incident at the hatch, would they become unique and special too? lol yikes...too many questions.
Ben .....i think it's a big question why Sun didn't travel back with them. Some suggest it's because Locke didn't visit her or frank or ben and invite them back (ben sought out Locke). others suggest it's because maybe a young sun is on the island (i still disagree with this one since we've seen our losties intersect in time periods when they were there already). Others suggest it has something to do with having Jin's ring. (eh...not so sure about that one either). Whatever the answer is....i'm sure it will be revealed. It's still not as perplexing and interesting to me as potential Time Travel Paradoxes are! lol
whew...can't wait for more information to dissect tonight!!
Hmm - I have an interesting thought - but my head always starts to implode before I get to finish it out. LOL
Everyone keeps saying if they are in the past right now then this had to already have happened.
But what if that is not true ? Somewhere in time/space there has to be a starting point where that timeframe did not have time travelers.
Let's say you are born in 1963 and are in your mid-forties in 2008, your travel back in time to 77 and are still in your mid-forties. Somewhere before the time travel back to 1977 - 1977 had to have happened without you ?? LIke, there has to have been a starting point, a past that has occurred before the time travel.
Now my head hurts. LOL
And - I don't think the purge will not happen - I just think it might be different this time. Maybe Ben went off his destined course when he assisted with the purge and then became eventual leader - throwing all sorts of stuff off. Maybe the course correction is to stop Ben ? Who knows ! But that is the fun isn't it ?
It does occur to me though, that over the years the producers have stated that they knew the ending and the end game all along. I also know they have had to make adjustments to the stories due to unforeseen issues (actors unexpectedly leaving, etc). I also recall that it was stated that the character of Ben was never supposed to be this big, that the actor has only been contracted for a few eps. When they saw how well Michael Emerson played it - they kept him around and made him more important.
If all that is true - then how prominent can Ben really be in the final end-game ??? Just saying !
MJ, a lot of people ARE thinking that way...about this being the first time that they are traveling into the past. (it's caused many debates this past week between me and my fiance'! lol)
Here's the thing...why does there HAVE to be a starting point? If time is linear and there is only ONE timeline...doesn't that mean all times exist at the SAME time? Not literally...i mean like ONE time period cannot exist without the other. so if they traveled from the future to the past....they have ALWAYS done this....It drives my head crazy to think about it any deeper than this....but just as crazy as my head gets when i really try to prove that a chicken or egg came first. It's just a never ending cycle. Both exist...and seem to always have existed. No way to prove how it originated.
I anxiously await any wrinkle they want to add to this though! lol
as for the producers having the end in mind as they have written the show...that is true...but there are caveats to this. and that comes into play with actual CHARACTERS they create to carry out their end game. BEN was never figured to be a prominent character. They were HOPING he would pan out to become the Leader of the Others....but they always had a plan for the LEADER OF THE OTHERS....and it didn't necessarily have to be BEN. It just worked out for them that it did. They also didn't have a plan for Dan Faraday since the beginning. But when they saw Jeremy Davies in that movie with Christian Bale (can't remember the name)...they knew they had to get him in LOST somehow...so they wrote this part for him.
I think having said this...Ben CAN figure prominently into the end of the series. He has become a prominent character in defining the show. And I think they can work that into how the show ends.
just my thoughts though!
MIke V
Is it true that season 6 has been cancelled by ABC because of the eeconomic situation and that they notified the cast last night? Please tell me this is an April fool's joke and it is not true.
Beatriz I have not heard this silly rumor...but considering the date that it is coming out....i'm going with April Fool's Joke! lol
Yeah - makes my head ache too, but I love it ! Never knew I was a masochist til Lost. LOL
I cannot wait to see how this all comes together. It will be fabulous, of that I am sure.
Well considering they just announced that M. Night Shyamalan has been retained to direct the series finale in '10, I would think nothing has been cancelled!
~Tim
Did you ever wonder why the others chose Ben to help with and survive through the purge? What makes him so special?
I think we'll soon find out - Ben being shot by Sayid and what happens to him soon after will show the others that Ben is different, it'll be a great ironic twist - if the Sayid, Jack, Kate, and Hurley never went back to 1977 then Ben would be just like every other DI to the others and would be killed off in the purge. So NOT going back might have altered the future.
Tim where did you see the news on M. Knight? I don't see that anywhere on the major sites. Perhaps another April Fool's Day joke? lol
I would think that either JJ Abrams would return to direct the series finale or they'd put it in the hands of their trusty Jack Bender who has directed some of LOST's finest episodes. That would be MY preference at least!
Besides..M Knight films exclusively in Philadelphia...Hawaii is quite a trip for him! lol
This episode was really interesting and very thought intriguing. I hope tonight's episode will answer some of your questions, and no doubt will it bring up even more thought intriguing ones,lol.
AHHHH!!!!!!!!! I can't wait for 9:00 to come!
Ha, Mike you're probably right, another April Fool's joke. Man I feel like an idiot!
I'm with you for Abrams doing the finale.
I noticed that tonight's episode was written by Cuse and Lindelof, and that's no joke! (didn't think that was a spoiler, sorry if it was).
~Tim
I heard the same on lindelof/cuse. They always write some quality scripts. And it will be needed considering who tonight's episode centers around. Speculation below in the mild spoiler section!
**********SPOILER BELOW************
We're getting a Kate-centric story. Kate is usually tied to weaker LOST episodes, according to most fans. I normally don't have a problem with them. Although, this time, Kate does have some interesting flashback stories that need to be told. I can think of 2.... What did Sawyer whisper to her? (i'm guessing this will involve a meeting with her and cassidy...and possibly meeting sawyer's daughter Clementine).....and what did she do with Aaron?? (could be with same meeting with Cassidy...or perhaps Claire's mother is involved?) EXCITING STUFF TO FIND OUT!
************END SPOILER************
Hello, Is it too obvious to think that perhaps Kate went back to the island to get Aaron "back"? Or to find out how to get him back? I know we have been telling ourselves that she went back for Sawyer but you would think her biggest incentive is Aaron.
This was another solid ep that left me feeling like I'm really getting into the groove of the show without leaving my head spinning after every episode. Not that I understand why everything happens, but I can wrap my head around the reality for each of the characters and their motivations.
I enjoyed Sayid's flashbacks to the future, and I think I agree that Ben accused Sayid of being a natural born killer because Sayid had shot Ben when he was just a kid. But wouldn't Sayid also remember this? I liked how they explained Ilana's presence as a bounty hunter and that's how Sayid ended up on the Ajira 316 flight.
When Sayid shoots Ben in 1977, I didn't think "Wow, Ben is dead!" I saw that Sayid's bullet didn't hit Ben's heart but only the right side of his rib cage, which wouldn't necessarily be fatal. I just presume Ben's going to live, most likely through the skilled hands of Jack the Surgeon. Yet I would think Jack would be even more reluctant to save Ben now than he was in 2004 because of everything that's happened to him after 2004. Then again, Jack never seems to care about any circumstances other than whether he can save a person's life.
However it ends up that Ben remains alive, the time-traveling law of "Whatever happened, happened" will remain concrete. Well, as concrete as any law can be within the minds of the Lost writers.
Yeah, I'm racing along on the eps now. It wouldn't surprise me if I finish season five by tomorrow and the entire series by early next week. When I said I was binge-watching the entire show, I wasn't kidding!
But I must admit that "real life" is also calling, so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Plus there's the notion of savoring what is left and trying to make it last as long as possible. But it's very hard to see the end of one episode and not click "play" on the next one. I imagine this will only get worse as I get deeper into the final season!
Flashbacks to the future eh? Ahh I get it. Except you have to think of things less linearly. It's s till a flashback from Sayid's perspective. Which is how I see you getting tripped up later when you ask why Sayid wouldn't remember the encounter. Because the Sayid meeting Ben "off island" happened BEFORE Sayid being in 1977 from Sayid's perspective. A lot of people got tripped up on this in season 5. But Hurley and Miles will have a conversation in the next episode that covers it perfectly. (that's the biggest spoiler I'll ever give ahead of time) I love that scene! lol
Enjoy if you keep watching. But totally understand if you take a break to savor the rest of the series and experience life! lol
Best comment ever "three years and no burning buses then y'all back for just one day..!"
lol didn't even have to refresh my memory on what episode this was by that quote. It all came rushing back to me. I loved season 5. I still think it's the most fun to re-watch (even though the whole series is!)
"Oh come on Amy it's only Ethan" had me in stitches!! I love your blog. It adds a new dimension to my previous viewings and also stops me binge watching as I will only watch a maximum of 2 episodes before reading up on your comments and the responses.
I was surprised by the jumping the shark post. The contributor must have been lost ha ha. Surely it's obvious this site is one big Lost lovefest.��
I want to know what happened to Daniel Faraday? None of the O6 has even inquired about him.
Another great episode.... About the island time travel... The earth has existed a very long time, and presumably the island has for a lot of it... The flashes only move around to when people lived on the island and not to millions of years ago...
So Annie isn't there any more in 1977 or have we just not seen her yet? Was she with the Chaelotte group of children and I didn't spot her? Hopefully that story will pop up soon.
Made laugh about Oldham... Seems like an odd name for a character... Oldham is a town in Greater Manchester and not exactly your quaint picturesque village type of place... I live in Bury, which if Manchester is a clock, then Bury is 11 o'clock, Rochdale 1.00 and Oldham 2.00. Just wasn't expecting a local town to be the name of a character.
Must go to bed now as am up for work in about 6 hours. I'll be watching the next episode tomorrow night!
Well there are ancient Egyptian artifacts and symbols on the island so it kinda gives you an idea how old the island may be. If they are truly ancient Egyptian! But that could be just speculation on my part.
As for Annie I don’t like to provide major spoilers but sometimes I might suggest to let things go. Lol One theory I constantly brought up in these blog posts was a significance to Annie. I may have over theorized on that one! :)
Nice on Oldham. Never made that connection to Manchester!
Sayid's reason for trying to kill 12 year-old Ben was an exercise in his own selfishness and illusions. He was never concerned about the Dharma purge. He wanted to erase those years he had served as Ben's hitman against the Widmore organization. And he wanted to go back to a time in which he would have met Nadia some three to four months sooner.
And everyone now knows that it was Widmore who had ordered the Dharma purge, not Ben. The latter had only participated in it by killing his father.
No disagreements here. Not sure if I said something differently then?
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